From fuarecords at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 19 15:02:02 2008
From: fuarecords at yahoo.com (Kelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:02:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stones] please help - blood after urine sample
Message-ID: <853587.43727.qm@web56307.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

My piggie was diagnosed with a small bladder stone last month. I started her on shilintong a week later. This morning, her urine looked pink, which it hadn't before. I took her in to see the vet; as her regular vet is off duty today, my piggie was seen by the vet's partner. Today's x-ray showed that the stone is larger than it was a month ago and may require surgery. Also, prior to today, my piggie's regular vet took urine samples by squeezing my piggie's bladder. Today, this different vet used a needle. (I didn't know this was her protocol, as my piggie was taken to another room for what I thought was only an x-ray).

Since the vet visit an hour ago, my piggie has been spotting bright red blood (in addition to the pink urine). Is this normal after a needle is inserted into the bladder? I am very concerned.

Thanks in advance for any wisdom. It's Saturday and the vet's office has closed for the weekend... 

       
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From karen at kazzys-cavies.co.uk  Sun Jan 20 13:42:56 2008
From: karen at kazzys-cavies.co.uk (Karen@KC)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:42:56 -0000
Subject: [Stones] Re Stones and blood after sampling
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1200848410.24027.stones_gpigs-database.org@gpigs-database.org>
References: <mailman.1.1200848410.24027.stones_gpigs-database.org@gpigs-database.org>
Message-ID: <000001c85b94$4683f680$0400a8c0@karen>

Catheterisation of the bladder I can confirm is performed by some vets,
ordinarily using a Jackson Cat Catheter Number 3, it is an intricate
procedure and needs someone very experienced doing it.  Until you hear back
from the vet who performed this, or your regular vet, absolutely give your
pig copious amounts of fluids orally, at least 30-40 mls per day to keep the
bladder flushed.  I would also advise pain relief, most common one here in
the UK Rimadyl, usual dose 1 20mg tablet split into two doses 2 x day.  Your
vet may be alarmed at this dosage, what he needs to bear in mind, guinea
pigs have a fast metabolic rate, thus eliminating the benefits of analgesia
quicker than a cat or dog,  I would also consider putting this pig on
Septrin antibiotic, at least 0.5 mls 2 x day.

For further information the product UriFlow has been found extremely
effective in treat post op bladder removal in pigs, and does seem to prevent
their return.

Good luck.

-----Original Message-----
From: stones-bounces at gpigs-database.org
[mailto:stones-bounces at gpigs-database.org] On Behalf Of
stones-request at gpigs-database.org
Sent: 20 January 2008 17:00
To: stones at gpigs-database.org
Subject: Stones Digest, Vol 41, Issue 1

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Today's Topics:

   1. please help - blood after urine sample (Kelly)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:02:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Kelly <fuarecords at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Stones] please help - blood after urine sample
To: stones at gpigs-database.org
Message-ID: <853587.43727.qm at web56307.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

My piggie was diagnosed with a small bladder stone last month. I started her
on shilintong a week later. This morning, her urine looked pink, which it
hadn't before. I took her in to see the vet; as her regular vet is off duty
today, my piggie was seen by the vet's partner. Today's x-ray showed that
the stone is larger than it was a month ago and may require surgery. Also,
prior to today, my piggie's regular vet took urine samples by squeezing my
piggie's bladder. Today, this different vet used a needle. (I didn't know
this was her protocol, as my piggie was taken to another room for what I
thought was only an x-ray).

Since the vet visit an hour ago, my piggie has been spotting bright red
blood (in addition to the pink urine). Is this normal after a needle is
inserted into the bladder? I am very concerned.

Thanks in advance for any wisdom. It's Saturday and the vet's office has
closed for the weekend... 

       
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End of Stones Digest, Vol 41, Issue 1
*************************************




From fuarecords at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 20 14:38:41 2008
From: fuarecords at yahoo.com (Kelly)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:38:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stones] Stones and blood after sampling - cystocentesis
Message-ID: <721211.56500.qm@web56302.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Karen. I appreciate your input. Thanks to Sharon and Tex, too. This is a great community of kind, caring and knowledgable people! :)

The vet collected a urine sample via cystocentesis yesterday. No catheter, but I believe the needle irritated an already inflamed bladder wall, and possibly broke a blood vessel. Since the cystocentesis, there has been intermittent, bright red spotting (in addition to the pink urine), although sometimes my piggie's urine looks completely clear. I have learned since yesterday that spotting can happen as a result of this procedure. I would not have consented to this procedure, as we previously obtained urine samples by merely squeezing the bladder, but I wasn't told (different vet). 

We are waiting to get the results of the urine tests back before assuming antibiotics are necessary. I will also talk over pain meds with my piggie's regular vet tomorrow. My piggie only seems to be in pain while urinating/defecating -- her appetite, behavior and habits are otherwise normal.

I am keeping her bladder flushed. Since the initial stone diagnosis last month, I have been syringing water to my piggie throughout the day (in addition to what she consumes on her own). I also used shilintong for 2 1/2 weeks (until the pink urine appeared yesterday); I have discontinued the shilintong as the stone now appears larger on x-ray. Something isn't working.

I am considering chanca piedra and I am wondering if anyone knows the appropriate dosage for a guinea pig. My understanding is that shilintong soothes the bladder and relaxes the urethra, while chanca piedra actually breaks up a stone.

Any guidance regarding chanca piedra will be appreciated. I have read conflicting dosage instructions on other websites. 

Thanks again!

Kelly
       
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From karenjanesmith at googlemail.com  Mon Jan 21 04:58:28 2008
From: karenjanesmith at googlemail.com (Karen Smith)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:58:28 +0000
Subject: [Stones] 1. please help - blood after urine sample (Kelly)
Message-ID: <c8fdb2930801210158q6c1891dt5ba8513f42f17b71@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kelly

I'd be annoyed if my vet used a needle - I can't begin to understand why a
vet would insert a needle for a bladder sample!  I'm in the UK but my vet
has got one by pressing on the bladder or I do my own tests at home - in a
very clean unused litter tray and literally wait till she goes.

Some of the blood could be from the needle.  If the stone is near the exit
in a female it is possible to extract it manually as my vet has done.  Where
are you located, UK or US?

Hope things are ok.

Karen
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From fuarecords at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 21 13:43:59 2008
From: fuarecords at yahoo.com (Kelly)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:43:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stones] please help - blood after urine sample (Kelly)
Message-ID: <765552.56419.qm@web56304.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Karen.

I am annoyed. My piggie's regular vet just squeezes the bladder to obtain a sample, but she was off duty and her partner filled in... I never dreamed that her protocol would be so different. My piggie was taken to another room for what I thought was an x-ray...Then I heard my piggie screaming... Then the blood for two days. 
Lesson learned.

She is doing a bit better today. The urine is more dilute, though still blood-tinged.

(I'm in the US, btw)

       
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From matwichuk at illinoisalumni.org  Mon Jan 21 14:02:35 2008
From: matwichuk at illinoisalumni.org (Meghann Matwichuk)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:02:35 -0800
Subject: [Stones] please help - blood after urine sample (Kelly)
Message-ID: <1c9401c85c60$2f0daba0$116a010a@mail2world.com>

Just wanted to chime in that I had a vet rupture / ulcerate a bladder
(post-surgery) once via the squeezing route, so I guess there can be
problems with all methods... It's too bad that they're such delicate /
unpredictable creatures. Best wishes to your little one -- I hope she
heals quickly and completely very soon! -- MM

<-----Original Message-----> 
>From: Kelly [fuarecords at yahoo.com]
>Sent: 1/21/2008 1:47:59 PM
>To: stones at gpigs-database.org
>Subject: Re: [Stones] please help - blood after urine sample (Kelly)
>
>Thanks, Karen.
>
>I am annoyed. My piggie's regular vet just squeezes the bladder to
obtain a
>sample, but she was off duty and her partner filled in... I never
dreamed that
>her protocol would be so different. My piggie was taken to another room
for what
>I thought was an x-ray...Then I heard my piggie screaming... Then the
blood for
>two days. 
>Lesson learned.
>
>She is doing a bit better today. The urine is more dilute, though still
>blood-tinged.
>
>(I'm in the US, btw)
>
>
>
>Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. 
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From ABSiev at aol.com  Mon Jan 21 14:23:50 2008
From: ABSiev at aol.com (ABSiev at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:23:50 EST
Subject: [Stones] obtaining urine sample
Message-ID: <c3b.29a90c45.34c64b46@aol.com>

All of this can be headed off by obtaining the urine sample at home and 
bringing it in to the vet with the piggie.  Just put your piggie in a very, very 
clean, empty rubbermaid-type storage box and keep it right next to you till the 
piggie pees.  scoop up the piggie immediately and put him or her back in his 
or her cage.  syringe up the urine and put it in a small, scrupulously clean 
bottle (or even leave it in the syringe, and put the syringe in a small plastic 
bag).  refrigerate till you go to the vet.
 
this will not produce a guaranteed-sterile urine sample, which may be what 
the vet was going for by using a needle (in that case, if there are bacteria in 
the sample you KNOW there is infection.  by any other means, the sample could 
be contaminated.)  however, it's pretty darn good, and utterly painless.  if 
you are looking for blood, sludge, etc., rather than infection, it's perfect.
 
other than that, very slight pressure on the piggie's bladder will usually 
produce an immediate sample at the vet's office (where the piggie is probably 
scared anyway).  there is no need to squeeze.
 
Amy



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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From atjnp at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jan 21 15:42:46 2008
From: atjnp at sbcglobal.net (Deb Tabert)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:42:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stones] please help - blood after urine sample (Kelly)
In-Reply-To: <765552.56419.qm@web56304.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <658452.20390.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Kelly....I am amazed that a cystocentesis done; having
said that, I remember once a loooong time ago when one
was done on my puppy.  MAYBE if a culture is needed,
but not when just needing a urinalysis specimen.

I think a discussion with your regular vet is in
order; I don't blame you at all for being upset!

Deb




From monioak at yahoo.ca  Mon Jan 21 20:29:50 2008
From: monioak at yahoo.ca (Monique Charlebois)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:29:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stones] Elvis' marsupialization
Message-ID: <715283.67129.qm@web56603.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Three and a half months after his marsupialization surgery due to a stone lodged in his urethra, Elvis is hanging in. His quality of life does not seem to be significantly impaired. He definitely enjoys food, and needs lots of it. He also enjoys our company and his evening routine with us ? especially me. We have a workable routine (bedding on puppy pads, which are changed 4-6 times per day, on top of fleece; his belly is washed 2-3 times per day, furazone ointment applied to the wound area and feet twice a day, antibiotics and metacam daily) and it seems to be working, with some adjustments from time to time.
   
  The negatives first: there is still a dime to nickel sized area of necrosis around the new opening to the bladder which refuses to heal. Guck accumulates in the opening and urine is held underneath, as well as in the hair around it. The exposed skin is quite pink and bleeds occasionally. The vet suspects this gunk was bacterial. He has a more pronounced odour. It took some two urine collections before the lab agreed to culture it ? but once cultured, they refused to do sensitivity testing for the most effective antibiotic  ? ?use your judgment?, they said. (Gee, don?t we all wish for such professional independence??) 
   
  Elvis was ?off the charts?, so to speak ? a count of 4+ - for both cornybacteria (normally part of bladder flora, but not at such a high count ? should be sensitive to baytril) as well as a count of 4+ for provotella, an anerobic bacteria quite prevalent in the environment. So in addition to the Baytril, Elvis has started on Flagyl today, for 2 weeks.
   
  He still cries when he poops, but they are big and manly ones. There seems to be more impaction and junk up the trunk. Whether this is due to age (he?s 5 now), the surgery, or the antibiotics 
 who knows?
   
  He is still eating about twice as much fresh food as before. He lost about 400 grams after surgery, but has regained about 100 gr of that. I became concerned he might be hyperthyroid as well. Two blood tests later, the outcome is the opposite: his thyroid is overworked stressed & underperforming, probably from his metabolism always being in healing mode. A major wound burns up a lot of calories, evidently. So we do not spare him the best, a real buffet, several times a day. Even some organic cereal flakes, which he adores. He is eating plenty of hay, and I provide Critical Care ?meatballs? twice a day (mixed with orange juice for extra yum) but he?s not too interested in pellets ? it?s a last resort. I also give him wheatgrass from an organic store or juice bar ? lots of rich anti-oxidant goodness.
   
  The bumblefoot is almost gone.
   
  I hope that this learning experience will help others some time in the future, and will lead to a published veterinary article or note.


       
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From bunsnpigs at aol.com  Mon Jan 21 21:16:12 2008
From: bunsnpigs at aol.com (bunsnpigs at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:16:12 -0500
Subject: [Stones] Elvis' marsupialization
In-Reply-To: <715283.67129.qm@web56603.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <715283.67129.qm@web56603.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CA2AB3E4CB3AE8-758-2152@WEBMAIL-MA13.sysops.aol.com>

I am amazed that he has been able to recover so well from this. I'm sure a lot has to do with a) your vet and b) your ability to keep him going. You haven't given up on him. Its certainly not for the faint at heart, but it sure is an act of true love on your part. Kudos to you and major hugs to Elvis. 

I do keep forgetting that when there is something going on that attacks the body, even if its parasites, the body uses more energy to fight it off and there can be weight loss.? Thanks for that reminder. 


Judi Lainer
Metropolitan Guinea Pig Rescue
Round Hill, Va
http://www.mgpr.org



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From fuarecords at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 16:59:18 2008
From: fuarecords at yahoo.com (Kelly)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:59:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stones] Bladder Stone -- Chanca Piedra Dose for GP?
Message-ID: <677357.69839.qm@web56301.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Does anyone have dosage information regarding chanca piedra? 

I am administering it to my piggie right now based on a comparison of average human body weight and GP body weight to establish some sort of dosage ratio, but this doesn't take a GP's metabolism into account. Also, the prescribed human dosage of "2ml two or more times daily as desired" is sort of vague sounding (how much "more" is okay in a person or a piggie?). 

I want to give my piggie enough to do the trick, but no so much that it harms her in any way.

Is .1 ml per day enough for a 1090g piggie? 
Is it too much?
Or is there a standard dose that is different from my guess?

Thanks in advance for any hadvice on this.

-Kelly

       
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From bunsnpigs at aol.com  Tue Jan 22 20:32:11 2008
From: bunsnpigs at aol.com (bunsnpigs at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:32:11 -0500
Subject: [Stones] Elvis' marsupialization
In-Reply-To: <715283.67129.qm@web56603.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <715283.67129.qm@web56603.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CA2B76E8CCA116-FB4-3048@FWM-M35.sysops.aol.com>

I was curious as to what my vet would think about Elvis' condition, so I forwarded her your email, Monique. She's dealt with a lot of different species and has done some amazing surgeries, although she says she has never tried the marsupialization on a guinea pig. She offered this comment on his surgical site:

YOU SHOULD ALWAYS KEEP OSTOMY SITES COVERED.? OTHERWISE SOONER OR LATER A SEPSIS WILL ASCEND

What she means is that it will eventually get infected to the point of causing the infection to travel into his bloodstream, causing a systemic infection. It may be something to discuss with your vet, and what does one use to cover this type of opening?


Judi Lainer
Metropolitan Guinea Pig Rescue
Round Hill, Va
http://www.mgpr.org

Educator/Fosterer
HRS MD/DC/NoVA
http://www.rabbit.org
http://www.rabbitsinthehouse.org


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From monioak at yahoo.ca  Tue Jan 22 22:14:16 2008
From: monioak at yahoo.ca (Monique Charlebois)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:14:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stones] Elvis' marsupialization
Message-ID: <928951.26109.qm@web56606.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Thank you so much, Judi, for your words of encouragement. It's great to know there are some people out there who don't think I am completely insane....
  Apparently there have not been any documented cases of marsupialization on cavies, so this will hopefully make it into a veterinary journal. I did see it as a stop-gap; my kids went through a lot this year and were simply not ready to lose Elvis so suddenly. He is everyone's 'therapy pig'. Now we are grateful to have him with us a bit longer, every day is precious. He is quite the Mr. Personality.
   
  I will have a frank discussion with my vet. 
  I don't know how we could cover something at the bottom of the belly. I did think of tiny doggie diapers, but that risks chafing and more urine scald. I'm not at home all day for frequent changes. Puppy pads are easy to change, he can move to a dry spot (in fact he prefers to snooze on top of a pile of hay), and air can circulate between his legs.  
  I have been told from the beginning that the key is to keep infection at bay and to maintain a high level of cleanliness. Sepsis may happen. It may be inevitable, but hopefully not so soon. I am certainly alert to that possibility and will not let Elvis suffer when the time comes. 
   
  Monique

       
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From texg at cavyinfo.com  Tue Jan 22 22:33:01 2008
From: texg at cavyinfo.com (texg at cavyinfo.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:33:01 -0500
Subject: [Stones] Elvis' marsupialization
In-Reply-To: <928951.26109.qm@web56606.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <928951.26109.qm@web56606.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080122223301.rblgmjmdc0k04ck4@www.cavyinfo.com>

Monique,

You might also want to discuss with the vet the possibility of using  
human incontinence care products on Elvis. There are a number of  
cleansers, creams and "barrier films" that are designed specifically  
for use on tender skin that is irritated by urine, etc.

Ironically, before all the products were put on the market they were  
tested on guinea pigs and rabbits to make sure they didn't irritate  
the skin, so I would think they would be safe for Elvis.

Another possibility are the "liquid bandage" type products. I had a  
piggie that had a chronic infection at an amputation site. To help  
prevent th einfection from worsening, and to keep the stump from  
becoming even more irritated, I would coat it with Liquid Bandage. The  
Liquid Bandage would stay intact for at least two days, after which we  
would gently cleanse the stump, dry and re-apply it.

Tex